Labour in a guddle over independence referendum
February 10, 2010 by Hamish Macdonell · 117 Comments
Iain Gray
Up until now, the Scottish Labour position has been this: we can’t have a referendum now because of the recession, this is no time to become embroiled in constitutional wrangles.
All fine and straightforward except no-one seemed to tell the Labour parties in Wales and London, both of which have backed two different referenda in the last 12 hours.
The Welsh Assembly has supported a call for a referendum on more powers for the Assembly – if that isn’t a constitutional referendum then it is difficult to see what is – and the Westminster Parliamentary Labour Party backed a referendum on proportional representation.
Both of these were agreed despite the recession.
Hence this rather smug press release from the SNP’s Pete Wishart this morning: “The hypocrisy of the Labour Party is stunning. In one day, they backed two separate referenda in the House of Commons and the Welsh Assembly and in doing so blew their own argument against a referendum on Scotland’s constitutional future out the water.
“Iain Gray needs to be clear. Will the Labour Party in the Scottish Parliament continue to oppose a referendum on Scotland’s future or will they join the clear majority and back an independence poll?
“The people of Scotland must have their say over their constitutional future. Labour cannot run scared any longer.”
The problem with this for Scottish Labour is that it doesn’t actually believe the argument it has been deploying against an independence referendum.
The only reason Labour say “not now but possibly in the future” is because of the Wendy Alexander “bring it on” debacle. The party is officially keeping its options open because it has no choice. If it said “no referendum, no way, not ever” it would not only be ditching Ms Alexander’s position completely and totally but it would open the party up to accusations of being un-democratic.
The reality is that Labour don’t want a referendum now and they can see no possibility of ever backing one in the future for one simple reason: there is a chance – however slim – that the SNP might win.
That is why the “not now, there’s a recession on” argument was wrong and misguided from the start. It was a hedge, a compromise and no-one really believed it. That argument was so flakey it was destined to fall to pieces at sometime. It is just a surprise that it has taken this long to happen.
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The irony is that the odds are Labour would probably find itself in power for a long time north of the border after the SNP achieved a split from England, Wales and NI. Labour’s power base is in the north – rightly or wrongly – and I wonder if – if the Tories win the UK level elections – there will be a thought towards that and Labour Scotland decide to go it solo from Labour UK.
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The odds are nothing of the sort. Why on earth would they be in power in Scotland at a time when the SNP had just delivered independence? Labour are totally distrusted in Scotland and only the unthinking numpty vote props them up now.
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Unfortunately the ‘unthinking numpty vote’ makes up a sizeable majority!
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Doubt it, not a brain in the whole lot of them.
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No chance. Remember, there is no such thing as Scottish Labour. Try joining this mythical party and see how far you get. It simply does not exist as an independent party. The use of the word Scottish was added by UK Labour to cover up this fact. Labour take their orders from London.
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This is disappointingly poor journalism. Apart from the words “rather smug” in relation to Pete Wishart’s press release, it is more or less a piece of propaganda for the SNP. Why hasn’t Iain Gray or some other senior Labour figure not been given the opportunity to comment on this issue to give your “story” some much needed balance?
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Dear ,dear more double standards from a unionist.
You are more than happy when it is the SNP getting bashed with no right of reply.
Just like the hypocrisy in your stance on an Independence Referendum in Scotland .
Yet again Labour caught out with their double standards.
What would Gray or any other Westminster apologist say to counteract this fact?
It is ok for London to deem a constitutional matter worthy of a referendum to suit their narrow political ends ,but not for Scotland.
The reek of hypocrisy is overwhelming!!!
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Why is Pete Wishart’s press release being described as “rather smug.” Isn’t it just the plain truth and if Scottish Labour want to reply to the criticism, what’s stopping them?
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Mr Heaney’s comment about poor journalism translates as “Hang on a minute, this article deals with the facts. That shouldn’t happen – articles in the papers online or conventional should be criticising the SNP no matter what they do or say”.
Don’t like it much when you get a taste of your own medicine, do you Heaney? In fact not even a taste of your own medicine, merely an article that isn’t blatantly slanted by the Labour press office prior to being faxed to the Scotsman for printing. GIRUY Labour.
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It’s difficult to see what the propaganda is, the facts alone make Gray and Murphy’s position uncomfortable – either referenda of this nature is not a good idea because of the economic mess or the economic mess is not an obstacle.
This has been flagged up by many independence supporters and others who advocate a referendum on Scotland’s constitutional future since Brown first floated the idea. The main stream media have simply ignored the apparent hypocrisy, this is the first time I have seen it in a formal news outlet.
If you read carefully the article is rather insulting to Pete Wishart describing his statement as ’smug’. The article is written from the point of view of a Unionist who is annoyed at the tactical blunder by Iain Gray and also Jim Murphy in allowing Wishart to point out Labour hypocrisy.
I would be surprised if there were independence supporters who didn’t want to see Iain Gray forced to give a response to the apparent conflict.
Let’s see if any journalist will ask him.
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Oh come on Bill … Weren’t you yourself John McFall’s Press Man ? You give it a go … put some balance to it … I agree that a quote from a senior labour figure would probably have given the story ( and it certainly is a story ) more balance.
For months now the 3 oppostion parties at Holyrood have been saying that they won’t support a referendum due to the financial state of the country … now we’re getting two. Are Wales and England ( in a non-devolved sense ) in a better financial state than Scotland ? I think we should be told …
btw – Sorry to see than John is stepping down – the parliament will be the poorer for it … although with numpties like Devine going as well there will maybe be a natural equilibrium at work
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Both Greater London City and Wales are devolved administrations. They have powers devolved from Westminster leaving under-employed MPs with much more time to focus on getting receipts into the expenses office.
In the case of London parliament, the MP in charge runs the largest police Service in London and employs more than 33,000 officers together with about 14,200 police staff, 270 traffic wardens and 4,700 Police Community Support Officers (PCSOs). The MPS is also being supported by more than 2,500 volunteer police officers in the Metropolitan Special Constabulary (MSC) and its Employer Supported Policing (ESP) programme. The Metropolitan Police Services covers an area of 620 square miles and a population of 7.2 million.
Tory-Toff MP Bobo Johnston was caught boasting that he commanded/controlled the Met.
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Dear Bill, you’ve made my day. SNP propaganda? We’ve now been accused of every form of bias apart from pro-Sagittarianism. Do we win a prize when we get the full set?
Stewart Kirkpatrick
Editor, The Caledonian Mercury
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If you’ve been accused of them all, you’re probably doing something right. Sounds like a worthwhile prize to me
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A good article. I have to agree that when everyone accuses you of bias you’re doing something right. An even playing field for everyone. It’s not easy to achieve but you are coming close. We all know that journalists have, and have every right to have, political beliefs. Those need to be put aside to tell the truth and plainly you are trying to do so in your new publication.
Well done.
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And what, may I ask, have you go against Sagittarians? I think it’s a disgrace!
I’m going to report your comment
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I suppose balance and fairness in journalism is so last century now that we have our very own national paper up on the web, Stewart. I know that yesterday you were slaughtered for being too kind to Labour on the luncheon row and today you’re being mildly chastised for peddling SNP propaganda. You shouldn’t be patting yourself on the back for this though. You should be asking yourself whether your (many!)readers have a point and whether you should look at their criticism to gauge if it’s justified. Being unfair to Labour one day and to the SNP the next is not balanced journalism. It begs the question: Who are you going to be unfair to tomorrow? I salute your bravery for having launched the Mercury however and I wish you and your colleagues every success.
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Surely not THE Bill Heaney? John McFall’s PA??
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I haven’t worked for John McFall since last June, Robert.
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Bill, I think Labour might be quite relieved they weren’t given an opportunity to respond. The logical gymnastics and hair-splitting required to explain away why what is happening in Wales is completely different in principle to the “constitutional naval-gazing” the SNP are supposedly proposing would, I suspect, make for quite an excruciating spectacle.
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Bill, they are never off the BBC Labour with their greetin.
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So, the only part you enjoyed was the ’smug’ remark in the article?
Look att eh grossly misleading soundbites of Cameron and Brown about the SNP and you’ll see ’smug’ at all times, and yet there is nothing for these posturing clowns to be smug about at all, is there-it is their statements that are smug instead.
The reason ian gray is not required to talk a load of balderdash is because he has talked mince about this for years, and so has Jim Murphy-both are useless, and this ‘recession’ based anti referendum nonsense is shown up as the farce it is.
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Do you not consider there has been a massive bias in the Scottish media by not jumping on this hypocrisy when labour announce their plans for referendums? Why did they wait for a press release to point of the obvious?
Why no questions to labour if they would commit to supporting a referendum on independence when the recession is over? Is that no bias?
I think you have become blinded by the fact that most of the Scottish media is anti SNP and hence pick on the unusual fact that the Mercury is trying to be more neutral. Will you condemn the blatant bias shown to labour in Scotland by the BBC who are mandated to be neutral unlike the print media.
I have no problem with articles asking for responses from political parties but do have a problem when the media in Scotland fail to ask the most basically obvious questions in case it puts labour in the spot. Journalist should ask probing questions not just spout a party political bit of spin.
In this article not report labours response their were 3 options. 1. ask labour probing questions about it contradictory position. 2. Allow labour of the hook and not put them on the record about their hypocrisy. 3. do what the Scotsman and turn the whole article into a labour press release.
All a journalist has to do is start of by asking Brown or Murphy if they think their position is consistent? Both Yes or No answers would put them in a very difficult position. But no the journalists let them off the hook.
A bit like Murphys absurd arc of insolvency. I am just waiting on the day a journalist asks him if we should now leave the UK as Brown has turned the UK into the lead member and the last G20 country out the recession (and we still do not know if Scotland is or not).
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Just why should they be allowed to spew out smears and vitriol?
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I suspect Iain Gray has not commented on the story because he has no idea what to say.
His argument has fallen apart. No doubt he will need some time to come up with another excuse for not supporting the referendum.
Its sheer hypocrisy
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Gordon didnae read it! Cardinal Murphy was otherwise engaged I suppose?
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Whilst i agree a response from Iain Gray would be good(actually amusing would be a better description) It doesn’t take away from the fact that the article is spot on. Labour in Wales and Labour in London are completely at odds with the excuse given by Labour in Scotland against a referendum on independence.
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Dear Neil,
That other devolved British institution has been going through some rough constitutional agreements as well. Last minute talks and the PM himself involved in securing a Northern Irish police force, of the Irish by the Irish for the Irish. There has been no hitches caused by any financial implications, and why should there be? Iain Gray and Jimbo Murphy are shysters, IMHO.
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In truth Mr Heaney above , in his rush to attack anything remotely fair in journalism asks one good question we would all like answered.
What will Labour say about this blatant hypocrisy in their stance on constitutional Referendia??
The old “nobody is interested” ,so why bother?
Their only way of staying in power at Westminster would be to deploy an equally ridiculous argument regarding the forthcoming GE.
“Nobody wants a Tory Government ,so we will not bother having an election in May!!!”
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Hamish is trying very hard to appear neutral in the minefield that is the political scene in Scotland.
Yesterday he did get his nether regions smacked quite badly by the comments department for his bias and bigotry that he carries in his baggage, still this morning in attempting to ingratiate himself with the masses he doth try just too hard.
The fact that the great teacher and leader of the SLAB in Holyrood does not read nor understand the orders from London is really not surprising to the majority. His ability to ignore the facts in every way, with negativity to the fore and put all the disgraceful actions by his friends and colleagues including “burgergate” under the carpet has been standard practise by the SLAB for 50 years or more.
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OH my the truth is out WE the LIEbour party like referendums BUT only if we think they will give us an advantage – are we surprised? In a guddle hardly – you are being far too kind suggesting they are intelligent enough to understand the issues the choices and come to any reasoned decision – power mad is the driving force in the LIEbour party – and they can see that they are heading for oblivion – what is it about power – power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely – yep the truth be out for all to see.
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Yes the truth be told; Constitutional Change is only possible when it suits the unionist Labour Party. Great to see this getting the press airing it deserves. Hopefully it wont be too long now until the people of Scotland get the chance to decide that question via the ballot box and we can rid ourselves of these puppets whose strings are pulled from Westminster.
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No such thing as “Scottish Labour”. Only the “Labour Party in Scotland”. Lets be very clear on that.
To call the Labour Party in Scotland “Scottish Labour” suggests an independent Scotland with a well defined democractic system. That is simply not the case.
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Not yet. However once they stop blocking our referendum, that could become a possibility. Come on Gray, embrace the concept of independence. You know it makes sense. Get off your knees and look up to the sky instead of down to the gutter.
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Not sure what to make of your comment Alibi since I haven’t alluded anything regarding my personal thoughts on independence.
Shall I accept your comment as a rally cry instead?
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I was basically agreeing with you regarding the erroneous use of “Scottish Labour”, Gary. Once independence is achieved, there may be such a thing as a Scottish Labour Party, but it is a tad hypocritical for Labour in Scotland to try to give the impression that they are an independent party when clearly they are nothing of the sort. Given that they want to block a referendum, we can deduce that they are not in favour of there ever being a Scottish Labour Party.
Very good entertainment watching them tie themselves in knots at every opportunity.
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Ah, got you Alibi! Yes, the Labour dance is spectacular. Side step, side step, u turn, spin!
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Too right Gary. Has anyone else noticed Radio Scotland using “Labour Party in Scotland” recently? I have a few times. They didn’t used to.
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No it used to be the Scottish Labour Party, drove us mad.
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It seems to me that ‘Scottish Labour’ could be a tad offensive to the sensitivities of your red rose wearing Unionist apparatchik, or to those Sons of William proudly bearing replica England jerseys, perhaps implying the heresy that, heaven forfend, life might be able exist outwith the Britannia’s apron strings.
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Oh I think that Cardinal Murphy has upset the sons of William plenty for one month, seems to have upsets the Sons of Columba at the same time! Truly brilliant performance on his part!
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Well the UK is technically out of recession – if only just, and barring any double-dip – so the proposed referenda aren’t entirely hypocritical. I don’t know what their continuing stance is though. Certainly there’s been no rush to approve the SNP’s plans for an independence referendum since the UK economy returned to infinitesimal growth.
We should also take into account the fact that the likelihood of a referendum on Westminster voting reform actually happening before the general election – and not being scrapped by the Tories as the first order of business – is exceedingly low. Only the Welsh referendum is ever likely to happen.
What worries me is the idea that democracy stops when times are tough. I agree with disillusioned; Labour would postpone the general election on economic grounds, if they thought they had a snowflake’s chance of getting away with it. Mind you, at least they’re consistent in that respect. The Tories joined Labour in calling an independence referendum an unwarranted distraction from the topic of the economy, yet they have never ceased their calls for an immediate general election.
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Of course it is a case of double standards! As soon as I heard Brown talk of having a referendum on voting reform in England and Wales, I knew that Gray’s Anti-Scottish referendum jaiket was on a shoogly nail. The sad thing about politics at their level, is that politicians shout at each other with mouths open and ears shut, and with their heads so far up in the clouds that they can’t see what is happening on the ground!
What they say today usually comes back to bite them next week, so Mr Gray can have his time in the spotlight; it might even make him look interesting, though I doubt it. He reminds me of John Major’s Spitting Image puppet every time I see and hear him. Charisma to him is a Spanish family saloon car!
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Someone said to me that Ian Gray was like John Major but without the sex appeal. Maybe he should spice himself up a bit with a hot Currie…
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Just a thought: If Scotland returned 30 or more SNP MPs at a UK general election there would be no requirement for referenda on independence as ‘First Past The Post’ would have delivered the nationalists their mandate. 30% or less of the electorate voting SNP could swing it.
Here’s the point, just as Holyrood was set up with PR to prevent the nationalists having a working majority on which to claim support for independence, might Gordon Brown be realising late in the day the need to also close this potential loophole at Westminster?
Face it, without Scotland Auld Nick could be ski-ing to work before Labour ran the UK of England&NI again.
As I said, just a thought.
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suggestion for an alternative headline would be :
THE GLASGOW PARTY IN A GUDDLE AGAIN!!
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Should that not be the Glasgow/Fife Party.
Outside of the main area’s of deprevation there are far to many tax payers footing the bill for labours mess to vote for them.
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This is a perfectly fair statement from Hamish.
He points out that Labour have been caught in a flat contradiction. And they are wide open to the charge of hypocrisy because they insist on maintaining the contradiction.
He makes two sharp points. Labour find themselves defending an indefensible position because their starting point was laughably weak. They had no answer to the question of holding a referendum, and conscious that they are always vulnerable to the charge of authoritarianism, they attempted to dissemble and deflect the issue. Predictably, it has now come back and exposed just that malign fanatical streak so often observed in Labour. Labour are simply afraid the SNP might win. Whether in attack or defence, the politics of fear dominates the labour mind-set.
Perhaps for reasons of space, Hamish is quite selective about the SNP case that he reports. A substantial part of argument put by Pete Wishart is not discussed at all. In that part, Wishart notes another flagrant contradiction – and thus hypocrisy – in labour’s frail argument that questions on the economy preclude constitutional ones:
“The key to fighting recession and boosting Scotland’s performance is securing the economic and financial powers we need to succeed, which is why it is important for the sake of our economic success that people have their right to a say on Scotland’s future in a free and fair referendum. For example, with the powers of fiscal autonomy and independence, we could have a further acceleration of capital spending – which the UK Treasury is currently refusing – and support more jobs and economic activity in Scotland.”
Exposed as hypocritical, fearful, and fanatical, Labour have done very poorly indeed on this issue.
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Oh dear Labour in Scotland in a guddle, how could that have happened?
Clearly their position on a referendum is now unsustainable. Their reason for opposing it is clearly stated by Hamish in the article.
“The reality is that Labour don’t want a referendum now and they can see no possibility of ever backing one in the future for one simple reason: there is a chance – however slim – that the SNP might win.”
That could be said in another way, they refuse to give the people their say in case they don’t like what the people say. Democracy Labour style.
FMQ should be interesting tomorrow.
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I am shocked Hamish, what you are actually saying is that Labour never believed in a referendum and just said so to try and scupper the SNP democratic aim?
What really!! This is a shock! Never!
A wee question to my unionist friends how is the most important commodity in the world, which has made a great deal of nations wealthy why hasn’t the UK not matched those countries quality of life indices? And has failed to improve the quality of life for Scots in the union?
Just curious?
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As above. Can’t wait for FMQ’s tomorro. And luckily I’ll be there. Get in
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As a matter of principle I no longer even click into the Scotsman or Herald sites.
I prefer my news as portrayed in the Cal Mac balanced and neutral.
Also the censorship in the Scotsman of posts is arbitary and biased in favour of unionism.
so can someone tell me ,are they covering this story , and B what is their slant on it all?
SNP accussed of forcing unwanted referendums on Wales and Westminster per chance?
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Oh come on now, surely it won’t break your faith to have a wee peek yerself?
Just a wee starter, Cameron’s on about Salmond being stuck in a perpetual episode of Braveheart. Insulting to many, as we voted him in, but you can imagine Booby Fab and the gang lapping it up? Weirdos.
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You’re away wi the ferries – I think you mean CalMerc.
BTW The Herald’s headline writing and subbing is being done in England. I stopped buying the paper two years ago and now never look at their website.
What a refreshing change this online wource is – weel done CalMerc!
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Profanity, when written or spoken in the right place, can be powerful, startling and irreverent. But this isn’t the right place, and the foregoing is none of these. I must have touched a nerve when I said that news stories, even political news stories, should be balanced. Say all you like about people and politics by all means but make it balanced, and steer clear of profanity as stooped to by Alibi. If Iain Gray – or any Labour person for that matter – was asked for a comment on this and didn’t give one then Hamish Macdonnell should have stated that in his article. By the way, why does Mr Angry(sorry, Alibi)feel he has to hide behind a nomme de plume? Anonymity was, and remains, the mortal foe of credibility.
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Bill, your response has all the characteristics of the NuLabour apologist you are.
The article was fair. It points out the problem that NuLabour in Scotland has. It makes it clear that it is based on an SNP Press Release.
Where is your problem?
NuLabour, in the guise of any of its spokespeople will, I’m sure, be given ample column inches to reply when they have sorted themselves out. Don’t you think that it would have been very unfair, to NuLabour, to spring a question on them like, “Will you now support a Referendum on Constitutional change for Scotland based on the SNP Bill to be brought before Parliament now that the recession’s over”?
Bill, do you think that NuLabour, and the LDs, should now support the proposed SNP Referendum Bill?
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I think Mr. Kirkpatrick answered your criticism quite thoroughly. Just because you don’t always get it your own way, don’t whinge. It is hardly an attractive trait.
As for nom de plumes, they are a long standing internet tradition. People have the right to post without the risk of losing a job because their boss happens to be unionist.
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Because that’s my nickname, Bill. Incidentally, on that theme, many people tell me they use pseudonyms because they don’t want to leave themselves open to pressure direct or indirect from employers or even from some of the thugs that masquerade as Labour activists (although I don’t personally have such problems as I’m self-employed. And profanity? Where would that be then? Get a life. Although I would agree that the Labour Party would make a saint swear.
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So you’ll be onto the Herald and hootsmon bloggs to make the point about the need for balance in their news coverage. Or does balance imply: tilted so much in your own favour there’s no danger of a contrary view tipping the scales any way but your’s?
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I’m wondering if Mr Kirkpatrick has had wee word in Hamish’s “shell-like”? Along the lines of “Did they not teach you about impartiality at Fettes son?”
I think the article is spoiled by the pejorative use of the word “smug”. Its also a tad sad that it takes an SNP press release to bring this kind of rank hypocrisy to the attention of Scotland’s ‘meeja’.
Bill Heaney does have a point – a wee “quote” from either Ian Gray or Seamus Murphy or even big, GB Brown would have been the cherry on the icing of this cake.
Slainte Mhor
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As a supporter of SNP I have to say the story was a tad over favourable and comments from labour to explain their position on why a referendum should now not be offered when the rest of the party thinks democracy in referenda are a good idea NOW would have been a good finish.
Of course had labour refused to comment then that could have been a useful secondary byline to the story.
Hopefuly that aspect can be followed uo as they deserve the right to reply.
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It is only right that NuLabour and the LDs have there opportunity to put forward their case for saying NO.
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You mean give them enough rope to hang themselves?
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I’m sure that Labour are just waiting for the regime change at the next election. Viewing a weak conservative government, they are preparing to jeer the Scottish party each time a consensus which benefits Scots is reached. Labour are beneath contempt but there are no investigative journalists with the bravado to pull them up on Irakistan lies, Torture and execution assistance, expense cheats, unelected cabinets, perversion of Scottish democracy, poverty or inequality.
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I think that most of us on here ,do not fully appreciate the pressure that is placed on journos in Scotland.
Sure some of them are as blind and as ignorant as some of the posters on sites like the Scotsman.
One only has to look at self confessed Nationalist Murray Elder who had to write the Herald line all the time against his beliefs.
He was apparently warned on many occassions for being to nice on SNP.
The British Establishment has ALWAYS been a nasty covert lot throughout the centuries.
From concentration Camps ,to slavery , illegal warsnothing has been beneath them to make profit.
They will do anything to protect London and Westminster, it is not just the oil and whisky revenues.
should scotland decide to go it alone , there is a chance that England on its own would lose its seat in the UN , have its AA credit rating downgraded etc.
so there is no lengths they will not go to to ensure the money keeps rolling into them.
Laying pressure on journos is just one tool in their armoury
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I think you mean Murray Ritchie?
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Yes Bill you are correct,thanks for that
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An article on a government press-release, without any mention of opposition party comment?
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Believe you me, a response from Iain Gray explaining Labour’s hypocrisy would be interesting.
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tomorrow 12:03(ish) me thinks
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I thought Labour were ignoring the SNP in favour of arresting anyone caught with a Large Starbucks and a can of Lager? Why would they comment as they have only ever sought to stop comments. The Opposition, which we are left to assume are London Labour in Scotland, are free to comment. The fact is that they have already stated they don’t want to even discuss constitutional change until the economy is in the black (sometime after 2011) despite a general election leaves us all in no doubt that they were procrastinating. Do we need need more occlusion from these recreants?
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I saw this on the news and smiled….. It does not suprise me there is a trappist silence from Messers grey et al, after all we all know that Labour have been committed to the Scotland for many years, I would love an AMS system in Scotland, a referendum well why not when we have the next election, if the people of Scotland say no then fair enough, and vice versa, either way it should be seen as a settled will for a decade, does anyone disagree?
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Yes, I disagree. Are you saying if pro-independence parties lose an election they should withdraw from politics for a decade? How about if Labour lose an election they should tear up their manifesto and withdraw from politics for a decade? Make sense?
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I do hope the comments section here will avoid the sort of tribal SNP/Labour spats that used to pollute the Scotsman website.
I fully expect the Welsh Labour people, Lib Dems or whoever to take a view from time to time that is different from their Scottish counterparts. Forgive me but isn’t that what devolution means?
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Dr Goose absoltely correct there should be different decisions for different Parliaments ,Assmeblies whatever.
These should be taken for the good of the constituents of that body.
The main thrust of the article and the comments is the hypocrisy and double standards of the Labour party in Scotland.
They cannot hide behind the argument that there can be no constituitional referendum or discussions till after the recessesion is over, except in Wales , and London.!!!!
It just adds to the SNP case of the unionists having something to hide and too scared of the people’s answer at an Independence referendum.
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Not if you only have one party, no. There is only ONE Labour party, and it is holding flatly contradictory positions in three countries. The Liberal Democrats can just about get away with this sort of hypocrisy, because the Scottish Lib Dems are a separate organisation to their Lib Dem brethren. Labour in Scotland are not.
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It is uncertain what way a refewrendum on the future of Scotland (note,I didn’t say Independence Referendum, for that has now been watered down)would go, Personally, I have no fears for an independent Scotland, having spent a lot of time in Norway, but the SNP must be more aspirational inits promotion of an independent Scotland.Just saying ‘Look what a good job we made of running as devolved administration’ is not going to fill the populace with great expectations of a land filled with milk and honey! Vision – that is,sadly, the missing ingredient in the thinking of ALL our political parties. So,whatever way a referendum goes, the result will only last for as long as people are happy with the outcome. From our record, we’re never happy with anything!
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Oh god we are all in a real guddle then Angus the optimist.
The Scottish National Party is working towards independence. raison de etre.
When the party came into being they had no aspirations/appetite to manage an administration hog-tied by another bigger administration hog-tied by another bigger and hungrier administration (EU). They, and me, want independence to manage our country with democratically elected folks.
It tells you something that a campaigner can perhaps one day be a leader of offices/subjects/issues of which they have had no prior knowledge and still do a better job. Lech of Poland?
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How can Gordon Brown possibly justify his position on preventing a referendum on self-determination for the ancient nation of Scotland when at the same time in Northern Ireland, under the 1998 Belfast Agreement, Section One, it says that British state formally recognises “the legitimacy of whatever choice is freely exercised by a majority of the people of Northern Ireland with regard to its status.”?
Schedule One of the Belfast Agreement allows the Secretary of State to hold a referendum on Northern Ireland leaving the UK. The Agreement says that the Secretary of State “shall” exercise this power “if at any time it appears likely to him that a majority of those voting would express a wish that Northern Ireland should cease to be a part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland.”
Schedule One also allows for repeat referendum polls on this issue every seven years and says “Clearly, too, the timing of a united Ireland referendum will be decided by the expressed will of any future Irish Nationalist majority and not by the state.”
Scotland’s distinctive national status is unambiguous and its people deserve the chance to decide if they want to manage their own affairs and resources .
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Because we dont kill each other maybe!!!
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Is that what it takes to make them listen?
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I was beginning to wonder when someone in Scottish journalistic circles was going to spot this glaring contrast in approach to referenda between Scotland, and England and Wales. Pete Wishart hits the nail squarely on the heid but why has it taken a press release to point out the blatantly obvious to those who are paid to spot things like this and report on them accordingly ?
It is too frequently the case that political or current affairs stories which are indisputably important to Scotland are covered by the Times and the Telegraph, but not by the Herald or the Scotsman.
What was it old Paddy Mayhew said about “Economy with the Truth” ?
Still, it`s hard not to chuckle at Mr. Heaney`s obvious discomfort when faced with a balanced report on an important issue.
If he is so certain that the Labour party were not given the right to reply, why didn`t he offer his own take on this apparent contradiction ?
I think we all know the answer to that.
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The first rule of journalism is that you should never presume anything. The second is that you shd allow all interested parties to comment and that you shd state whether they agreed to do so or not. My problem with this story is not that the SNP were allowed to state their position on this matter. That is their right. It is that Labour were not allowed to comment. If they were then the article should have said that. It didn’t — and in my book that’s unfair. I don’t know what you do for a living Desmo, but by saying you know what’s in mind without asking me suggests you would be comfortable in the Stab in the Dark School of Journalism. Or perhaps you have crystal balls?
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So when did this bolt of lightning strike Bill and provide this moment of clarity?
Seems to me your Epiphany on fairness in the media has been a long time coming, but better a sinner repent and all that eh?
What’s that? just ‘fairness’ to Labour contributors, the rest can take a long hike off a short pier…
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I`m afraid you`ve broken your “first rule of journalism”, Bill, as you appear to presume I`m happy with the “unfairness” of the article in which “Labour were not allowed to comment.”
As others have already said, it would be very interesting to hear any Labour party representative explain their position and as you have strong links with them, surely it wasn`t unreasonable to question why you yourself chose not to do so. Does the fact that you still haven`t done so suggest my “stab in the dark” was bang on the money ?
I think, though, that most people who read the article would have assumed, as I did, that Labour were indeed given a right to reply, but “No-one was available”. The fact that this wasn`t pointed out is hardly worth bothering about in the circumstances, but it did provide you with a nice, handy distraction, eh ?
Now, have a look at the Hootsmon`s archives and see how long it takes you to find articles denigrating the SNP where the Nats really weren`t given the chance to respond. Shouldn`t take you long.
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You shd stop presuming things Desmo and start dealing in facts. I don’t read The Scotsman. And I am not a Labour spokesperson. What I can say though is that if it’s the Labour Party in Scotland’s position that they don’t want a referendum until the recession is over and the country is out of the financial bit then it’s a bit early to be announcing that they’re now up for it. Professor Bruce Scott (I think that was the name, but I cd be wrong) from Edinburgh University told BBC’s Good Morning Scotland today that the recession hadn’t gone away. And there are a host of shroud waving economic commentators (they’re another lot who deal in opinion and not facts) out there who think the worst is yet to come. And, lest ye forget, this is devolved Scotland we’re in and not England or Wales and Labour in Scotland shd be deciding what its policies are without looking to London or Cardiff.
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Bill, I`m genuinely grateful for your opinion, it`s more than we`ve had from Grey, Murphy or our esteemed PM and, for the record, I totally agree with you that the economy has further to fall, particularly once the election is over.
My problem with what you`ve said is that Labour in Scotland have, with others, consistently argued that a referendum would be a distraction from the economic problems we`re facing and that all our time and energy should go into addressing the longest, deepest recession in history. So why has no-one told Gordon Brown ?
The Labour party seem to think they can have one rule for the English and Welsh, and another for us. What on earth do they take us for ?Either we can have a referendum or we can`t, because their criteria for refusal exists across the whole of the UK, not just Scotland.
Yes, I know this is devolved Scotland, but are you really saying that Iain Grey has complete autonomy to formulate policy as he sees fit ?
This is not the only live issue where Labour have been exposed as two-faced and contradictory and if the main stream media weren`t so compliant, most reasonable people would be rightly appalled by such anti-democratic shysters.
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Do you disagree with the blatant bias of the BBC in Scotland towards labour and would you agree that bias has a cancerous effect on our democracy?
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“If Iain Gray – or any Labour person for that matter – was asked for a comment on this and didn’t give one then Hamish Macdonnell should have stated that in his article.”
Gray would be hiding under his bed you mean?
How can Gray and Labour change their stance yet again, and why would they wish to answer an awkward question?
Jim Murphy, for instance, was absolutely invisible when el Megrahi was released, he hid, only to re-emerge two moths later at ‘Scottish’ Questions at Westminster to snipe at the Scottish Government.
Labour always hides from awkward questions thrown up that show their inability to be truthful, Gordon brown is famous for this.
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The wee Grey nunpty should resign
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I apologise for calling the wee Grey pygmy a numpty. He has a fine record of shouting. !Resign! Resign!”
Perhaps someone can tell me what he has to do with Socialism, what he actually stands for, apart from being opposed to anything progressive for Scotland, being an automatic anti SNP kneejerker and of what use is he to anything to do with Scotland?
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“I fully expect the Welsh Labour people, Lib Dems or whoever to take a view from time to time that is different from their Scottish counterparts. Forgive me but isn’t that what devolution means?”
No.
Complete nonsense. Vote labour all you like, but your argument about an issue like this should not offend the intellect.
The Westminster Parliament is contradicting themselves; it is just that they are absolutely scared stiff of the SNP on every level, and being an incompetent bunch, regardless of what cartoon parody unionist party is in Westminster, they have every reason to fear the SNP and will put any policy on the back-boiler if they get the opportunity.
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The Tri-partied Unionist alliance against the minority SNP Scottish Government is predictable if not rather sad in this election run up,every political discussion and debate is being monitered as being bias to one or the other ,can we not rise above this and have some intelectual debate on this site ?
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this is a very fair comment! you cant please everyone i know all we want is
fairness, something that has not been so in many years thank you.
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Given that a referendum will eventually have to happen – Even Mr Gray will need to concede this eventually. The Labour leadership needs focus on the terms of the referendum. For example, how do stop this becoming a ‘neverrendum’ – as per Canada and a fair, unequivocal question be formulated. In short, the strategy needs to be relate to ‘best-terms’ not a holding position of maybe later.
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They must have an invisible cloak cause I will be looking at him and the others when we are independently taking care of ours.
ufisisums but history has taken it;s time. Our country will be independent own way. I am looking towards to the future.
never so much as much as now
Lets embrace other countries who have gained freedom and who are our friends. England being the first.
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As I watch the last remnants of what was a great party slip undeer the slime, the words of the unofficial Red Flag spring to mind:
“The working class can kiss my a**e.
I’ve got the foreman’s job at last”!
They gained power, but lost their principles! ‘All men are equal, but some are more equal than others’ seems to be the new mantra.
Another wee thing I’ve noticed, their Scottish literature used to say ‘New Labour’ in big, bold letters with a very wee thin ‘Scotland’ stuck underneath. It’s now Scottish Labour, but that is in name only; Scotland is still regarded as the wee thin scrag-end being kept in its (in Westminster’s eyes) proper place under New Tories (which is really what the Labour Party has become). So ‘No Surrender’ in Northern Ireland and ‘No Referendum’ in Scotland.
We don’t have to take it, of course, but how many people care enough to do something about it? I think it was Kenny McAskill who once said “If you want to get Westminster off your back, then get off your knees!” I wonder whatever happened to him?
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It is not unusual for Labour to have a different position on any issue. Although they are the one party, they will say that’s the English view/decision or thats our view/decision in Scotland. They see no contradiction in having opposite views on any matter….till London tells them what to do!
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I’m no huge fan of the Scottish Labour Party, but it seems to me that the ability of the Scottish party to decide its policy seperately of the national party is the whole point of devolution; I see no hypocrisy here.
If Welsh Labour decide they want to hold a constitutional referendum in the current economic climate, and Scottish Labour don’t, surely that’s just decentralisation of power working like it should.
Personally, I don’t see how this uncertainty over Scotland’s constitutional future can be any better for the economy than having a referendum now, so at least we know if there there’s going to be constitutional change or not.
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The ability of the Scottish party to decide its policy seperately of the national party is the whole point of devolution, but do you ever seen any evidence for them using it?
When you have political giants of the calibre of McLiesh, McConnell, Alexander and Gray at the tiller, ever keen to grab their ankles and think of England at every turn.
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It is true that there is little evidence of Labour, or any of the unionist parties (even the federal Lib Dems), utilising devolution to it’s full, but when we are witness to the odd time when the leadership of Labour in Scotland are in disagreement with the national leadership, this is something worthy of praise rather than shouts of hypocrisy.
Having said that though, I’m not accusing Labour of being innocent defenders of decentralised democracy here; As the article points out, It’s a little too convenient that the policy change from ‘no’ to ‘maybe later’ came soon after Wendy Alexander told the SNP that she ain’t afraid of no fight.
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The problem is that there IS no Scottish party! They are told what to do by London and dutifully carry out their instructions!
If there was a Scottish Party, then the above could be true, but until then…..
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Ask yourself this question: “Who decides Labour policy in Scotland, Ian Gray or Jim Murphy?” As I recollect Mr Murphy referred to Mr Gray as ‘The leader of LAbour in the Scottish Parliament’, inferring that Slim Jim was the head honcho of Labour in Scotland.
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Fairly shaky inference if you ask me. Ian Gray IS leader of Labour in the Scottish Parliament, and as such has responsibility over Labour policy on most of the domestic issues in Scotland.
The role of Secretary of State for Scotland (also Wales and Northern Ireland) has been drastically reduced since the introduction of devolution. This has led to 3 out of last 4 Scottish Secretaries holding two cabinet positions just to keep the work load up. If Mr Murphy was trying to infer that he’s the kingpin round these parts because he holds what is generally considered to be a part-time portfolio, he’s sorely mistaken.
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Surely that MP from Fife… Brown, I think his name is… is the most senior member of the Labour Party in Scotland? I think you’ll find he’s the one who decides Labour policy in Scotland.
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What odds are the bookies offering on Elmer Fudd being smashed by Wee Eck in today’s FMQs? Its bound to crop up.
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Gray must be shaking with fear, knowing that he’s got to go out and face Alex Salmond at FMQs. He is going to get torn apart.
Go for it Alex – stop toying with him and letting him off lightly. Show him up in public for the spineless rubber stamp that he is.
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In what way is calling a smug press release smug pro-Unionist? I’m confused: in the comments above we’ve been accused of pro-Nat and pro-Unionist bias in the same story. Is this some kind of record?
More seriously, while I’m delighted to have this level of impassioned debate on The Caledonian Mercury can I make one point. A key part of our philosophy is respect for the viewpoints of others.
Sure, Labour and SNP supporters are going to have profound disagreements but please treat other posters – and our journalists – with the respect you would yourselves expect.
Thanks,
Stewart
Stewart Kirkpatrick
Editor, The Caledonian Mercury
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Respect has to be earned. Who respects lickspittles? Not even their paymasters and handlers respects such persons, backslappers maybe?
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Alas, I fear that the Gray Man of Scottish Politics will be let off the hook by the apparent indiscretion of Ms Sturgeon in supporting a constituent who appears to have gone to the same school of ethics as Mr Devine! No doubt Mr Salmond will out-shout Gray in any event. Lesson: If you want to march into a bright new future for your country, don’t keep shooting yourself in the foot!
Referendum now to be reduced to a ‘draft document’ to thwart the ‘cunning plan’ of having one of the opposition in the chair of the supervising committee. Cunning ploy by Mr S, or white flag? We shall see.
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For once I have read the whole long comments section in a part of the Scottish media. The reason? Most of the comments are intelligent and it is good to see well known party activists and the Editor joining in. And I fully endorse the latter’s plea that writers respect each other. It appals me to read the comments on some other media sites, and most of the insulting remarks arise because nom de plumes are used. Why doesn’t Caledonian Mercury make it a condition of commenting that full correct names are used. I know I am submitting this under a nom de plume but only because others are doing the same. I would be very happy to post under my real name.
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Just you post under your own name and suddenly find yourself the recipient of a bibfull of email correspondence, not all of which you’ll find enlightening or welcome. Honourable intentions are one thing but noms de plume did not happen by chance.
What’s in a name? Multiple identities flaming and stoking up antagonism, now there’s a different story. The hootsmon and Herald are particulary tiresom for that kind of carry-on.
The CM is doing just fine moderating with a light touch, just enough to be criticised from ALL sides for bias against whatever side you happen to be on.
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Lovely to see the old mantra ‘no one can serve two masters’ unravelling. This was always going to be the undoing of Labour.
Being undermined from London shows them for what they are, non-entities not even worthy of consultation.
Their whole argument has at a stroke been demolished by Westminster, lovely.
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Didn’t take long for the Cale Mercury to fall into the old Scotsman trap and fail to distinguish between actual reportage and opinion… but what else can we expect from Mr MacDonnell? There is no where in the Scottish media to get straight factual news reporting without encountering subjective (usually unionist) bile thrown in. Stick to objective, factual comments please or this reader will certainly not be back.
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I am sure many readers would like to see analysis of the facts and discussion of the implications.
I think it is sad and poor journalism in Scotland generally that hypocrisy of a political party is not reported and analysed by journalists and we have to wait for a party political press release before it can be discussed.
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“CALEDONIAN MERCURY” …….. Real facts, written fair
Unbiased reporting …………. A breath o’ fresh air
Withoot fear ur favour ….. Plain truth, nothin’ more
At last, Scotland’s future’s .. Mer’ braw, than before.
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